But I live on the East Coast, Mark. And their stories don't make it over here. What makes it over here is stuff (or other words for "stuff") like this:
There is a strong drift toward the hard theological left. Some emergent types [want] to recast Jesus as a limp-wrist hippie in a dress with a lot of product in his hair, who drank decaf and made pithy Zen statements about life while shopping for the perfect pair of shoes. In Revelation, Jesus is a pride fighter with a tattoo down his leg, a sword in his hand and the commitment to make someone bleed. That is a guy I can worship. I cannot worship the hippie, diaper, halo Christ because I cannot worship a guy I can beat up. I fear some are becoming more cultural than Christian, and without a big Jesus who has authority and hates sin as revealed in the Bible, we will have less and less Christians, and more and more confused, spiritually self-righteous blogger critics of Christianity. Mark Driscoll, Relevant Magazine, 2007At the risk of being a spiritually self-righteous blogger critic, let me just say, what the hell? I mean I know where you're coming from: Jesus's ministry included fashioning a whip and overturning tables and driving out money-changers. But this was one incident in a thirty year ministry that was defined by non-violence. Its climax, the crucifixion, was in part an act of civil disobedience, in which Jesus was the guy getting beaten up, the one made to bleed, the one pierced by a sword. But that's not even my issue here. My issue is the implication that people who you are able beat to a pulp are not worthy of your respect. Which I imagine would include Ghandi, Einstein, and Mr. Rogers. And let me just say, Mark, I think Mr. Rogers deserves your respect. Which brings me to...
I eventually had to distance myself from the Emergent stream of the network because friends like Brian McLaren and Doug Pagitt began pushing a theological agenda that greatly troubled me. Examples include referring to God as a chick, questioning God's sovereignty over and knowledge of the future, denial of the substitutionary atonement at the cross, a low view of Scripture, and denial of hell which is one hell of a mistake. Mark Driscoll, Resurgence Blog, 2008But Mark, God is a chick. Or rather, God is a gender-less being who probably doesn't tolerate being referred to using a patronizing word like "chick" as patiently as most women do. What does it say to the women who make up the majority of the Christian community when you deny God's role as both father and mother of creation, the divine being who created gender and thus encompasses and transcends it completely? I've spoken to some of them, and I think it says to them that they're unimportant and ultimately worth less to God than men.
But Mark, this isn't even what really grinds my gut. What makes me so livid I write blog posts like this one (
The problem in the church today, it's just a bunch of nice, soft, tender, chick-ified, church boys. Sixty percent of Christians are chicks and the forty percent that are dudes are still sorta chicks. It's just sad. When you walk in it's sea-foam green and fuscia and lemon yellow and the whole architecture and the whole aesthetic is real feminine and the preacher's kinda feminine and the music's kinda emotional and feminine and we're looking around going, "How come we're not innovative?" Cause all the innovative dudes are home watching football. Or they're out making money or climbing a mountain or shootin' a gun or working on their truck. [...] They're gonna get married, make money, make babies, build companies, buy real estate; they're gonna make the culture of the future. If you get the young men you win the war. You get everything; you get the families, the women, the children, the money, the business—you get everything. You don't get the young men you get nothing. [...] Churches that don't have those guys, they can't be innovative, because they don't have innovators. They're just not there. Mark Driscoll, Desiring God interview, 2006Ok ok ok look, I get it. Many, if not most churches are not inviting to men who drive pickup trucks and shoot guns. There is a large swath of blue-collar American men who can't connect with the average American church. Yes, it's an important demographic which you and the folks at Mars Hill have done an exceptional job of reaching.
So what story do you have about the most effeminate anatomically male worship leader you've ever personally witnessed? Mark Driscoll, Facebook, July 2011
But let me be frank for a minute, Mark. By your standards I am the most effeminate male worship leader I know. I don't drive a truck, I have no interest guns, I haven't climbed many mountains, sports bore me, and I thought Wild at Heart was just okay.
I play the piano. I enjoy theater. I almost always prefer to create than to compete or conquer. And if there's one God-forsaken lie that offends every part of who I am, it is the claim that these things are inconsistent with masculinity. That real men don't become poets or ballet dancers or violin players. These roles do not neuter masculinity, but the idea that they are not a part of masculinity's strength and substance certainly does. How many great artists and thinkers have been cut short by fathers with brutishly narrow views of what is masculine? The church needs those people too.
Honestly, call me chick-ified, but I don't think sitting at home watching football on a Sunday morning is a mark of an innovative thinker. And I fail to understand how only men get married, make money, make babies, build companies, buy real estate, and innovate. Your words say to me that to be feminine is to be backward, future-less, unimportant, and full of nothingness—which is not just misogyny, it is heresy.
But you know what, Mark? I don't think you really think those things, at least not these days. I think you probably recognize that when you look at the whole of church history, it is women, not men, that have been the oppressed, marginalized, and ignored. I would guess you probably have some choice words for the men who have taken advantage of women in churches over the centuries. I've heard you speaking wise words to the generation of man-boys I find myself in, who prefer to live in a state of perpetual adolescence than to take responsibility for their actions and honor the women in their life. I've read about you admonishing men to care for their families and publicly apologizing for making demeaning comments about women. I've even read that you may regret some of the statements I've posted here.
In fact I think you have a good many wise things to say. I've heard some of them. My dear friends who attend your church have heard many of them. So I'm begging you, Mark, to get some of them across the plains. Instead of loading up my browser and reading pot-shots about your perception of my masculinity, I'd love to read about how your church is innovating ways to serve the poor in Seattle. I know it's controversy that drives the bad out here instead of the good. But the bad comes from somewhere, Mark, and I wish it would stop.
Sources not yet linked: Experimental Theology | Seattle Times
Image: Haags Uitburo
Special thanks to the liberated Carolyn Tapie

funny, my mom just mentioned this guy to me last week. she says he looks like detective robert goren in law & order: criminal intent. sounds like detective goren could teach this reverend driscoll a few things, and not just in the looks department. -seth riddley
ReplyDeleteFrom a male children's minister and elementary school educator, thank you for this post. My mouth filled with a bitter taste at the words of Mr. Driscoll. The fruit of the Spirit haves been edited, the good parts redacted. Ridicule for love, mocking for joy, provocation for peace, bigotry for kindness, thin words for goodness, self-worship for faithfulness, a harsh tongue for gentleness and Facebook for self-control.
ReplyDeleteI think I let comments like this hurt me more than I should. I am bothered by them, shaken. I feel a bit broken and a bit beaten up despite a good voice whispering strongly in my ear that I am doing good and being faithful and that I am loved.
Obviously they shake me too, Ryan. Thanks for letting me know you're in this too. Your words about the fruit of the Spirit are honest and true. And I deeply believe that you are doing good, that you are being faithful, and I know you beyond doubt that you are loved.
ReplyDeleteHaha I looked him up, Seth, and your mother is right!
ReplyDeleteDon't take this down. Driscoll's words are rapidly catching the attention of non-christians, like myself, who are googling. This post will make people feel less sad about american christianity.
ReplyDeleteI hope so, Justin. Thanks.
ReplyDeleteI agree that you shouldn't take this one down!
ReplyDeleteThanks, Justin, for this post. It seems to me one of the problems the church faces is we accept society's measures of sexual identity, as if who we are as persons can actually be pigeonholed by the nature of our sexual desires or gender characteristics. Whatever desires or characteristics I may have cannot truly label who I am. If I'm convinced of anything, it is this: my real self, my true identity is in Christ. The more I find myself in Jesus, the more I find my real self. Categories of sexual identity and/or gender characteristics are just so many dependent variables. Thanks for calling brother Mark to task by reminding him that God's love and God's church do not discriminate among persons, but invite all to come and to serve.
ReplyDeleteBrains can be quite intimidating when they are connected to a heart that is enlivened by the spirit of God in the context of our culture...as it is for both you AND Ryan.
ReplyDeletePlease keep the post.
Jerry - Not sure I'm on the same page with all of that but thanks for your words. We should chat sometime.
ReplyDeleteHeckler - Thanks, brother.
Good post.
ReplyDeleteI don't fully agree with everything in it, in the same way that I don't fully disagree with everything Mark said. But anytime there's a discussion about something vs. some kind of human-formed hard-fast rule, I'm happy.
The main issue I see with Driscoll's opinions is that he saw a lacking in "masculinity" in the church and decided that as a rule men should be solely as "masculine" as possible, rather than seeking to emulate God's definition and examples for masculinity and emulating in as many ways as the Spirit leads and enables.
Thanks, Ben. I'd be interested to hear what you disagree with.
ReplyDeletePerhaps, just perhaps, the problem here lies in focusing on two or three sound bites from Pastor Dricoll and basing an opinion on those that may be a bit skewed. If you do know of good things that Pastor Driscoll has stated, Justin, perhaps those should have been included to encourage women and effeminate worship leaders. Sound bites can be and are often taken out of context - mainstream media is notorious for it - and often used for harm rather than being helpful. Someone could easily take bites from some of my sermons and isolate them and make sound like I was a member of the HE-MAN WOMAN HATERS CLUB. I don't think that is where Pastor Driscoll is, and I would love to hear the context of the sermon or article from which those sound bites were taken. Just one pastor looking out for another.
ReplyDeleteRev Rog
Each quote has a link where you can read or hear it in context. The fact that Mark has said a lot of good things does not excuse these statements.
ReplyDeleteThe more I think about this post and read back over Driscoll's statements above, the more I believe we have to look at this through the lens of a Christian on the West Coast. If we take it back the basics, Paul's New Testament letters were all written to specific churches and communities. His letter to the Colossians did not specifically apply to the Galatians. I think, centuries later, this same concept applies. Driscoll is pastoring a city on the West Coast of the United States. You and I grew up in a PCA church in the conservative South. His words were meant to sting the people in Seattle and they do not translate in the same way on the other side of the U.S. Because to us they feel like a slap in the face. No - I am not saying I support his statements above. His words, "You don't get the young men you get nothing," are extremely offensive to me. But I do think that a pastor is called to pastor his community (Driscoll and Acts29 is all about this belief). A pastor is not called to pastor a whole nation. It would be awesome if that was possible, but I don't think it is. You get Joel Olsteen when you try for that. So yes - Driscoll should watch his mouth and remember that his sermons are broadcasted over the continental US. But more importantly, he should challenge his community and speak into their specific needs. We should show him grace and remember that he is battling the West Coast hipster mentality that loves granola and green living and hates conflict. It's a totally different church over here by the Atlantic.
ReplyDeleteI love you. Driscoll is coming to Athens in October. I'll give him the stink eye for the both of us.
Haha. Thanks, Anna. I think you're right to point out that pastors' words should be considered in the context of their community. The problem for me though is that 3/4 of the quotes above were taken from public sources (Facebook and interviews) that were not directed specifically to Mars Hill, as in a sermon. The most offensive quote to me, the one about chick-ified church boys, is given as general advice for people who are wondering why their churches aren't "innovative." I'm just not sure a West Coast perspective would change it all that much. I know it's anecdotal, but the few friends I have in Seattle were pretty offended by these statements too.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, we should show him grace. There's such a thin line between being merciful on the one hand and speaking against injustice on the other. I don't know if I've ever threaded it well.
Thank you so, so much for commenting here. Your voice is dearly important in my life. And thanks for giving Mark D the stink eye for me. I know you got my back.